Skipper
Beginner Novelist
Posts: 22
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Post by Skipper on Jul 20, 2009 17:09:40 GMT
You know what assuming does, don't you, Nightsy? Tom, there has to be a being outside of time. I'm not saying, " Maybe there's something outside of time." I'm saying, "Whatever made time must be outside of time in order to have created it." And that is a definite "must." Evil Inclination, they aren't opinions. They're facts. Is it an opinion that Darwin's idea of a cell was a mud hut compared to today's galaxy of a cell? Is it an opinion that there's a one out of a trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion chance that even one protein could be made? Is it an opinion that it takes 250 proteins for even minimal life function? These aren't opinions, Evil, they're facts. I quote real people, and use the real research of these real experts in order to prove that I'm not making any of this up. And even if all I had provided was an opinion or twenty, they are all well-known scientists in the same scientific community as Richard Dawkins, whose words almost every atheist spreads around like a virus. 2. As for the Bible: Did you know that nearly every ancient religion in the world talks of a great, worldwide flood? Did you know that fossils of ancient sea creatures have been found atop moutains? Jesus "flew away into heaven" because He's God -- He can do whatever He very well pleases. The Red Sea parted because either God wanted it to, or because certain wind and water currents created some sort of strange event that separated said sea into two halves (unlikely, but still a theory). Humour me for a moment, will you? At the moment, let's just say that my previous argument for why God must (again, quite definitely) exist is complete and utter fact -- it hasn't yet been disputed, correct? If, in fact, I am correct, and there is a timeless, necessarily existent being Who created Life, the Universe, and Everything, then how is it that the creator of the universe cannot part the seas? How is it that He cannot reach down to Earth and back? How is it that He cannot affect what occurs in His little time jar which He keeps conveniently on His coffee table? If He can create the Universe and start life, with or without evolution, then why can't He do something as simple as separating some water? How big is God, anyway? Were I the size of God, I'm certain that I could part the Red Sea quite easily with my hands. Yet He can do more. It seems that in order to call the parting of the Red Sea ridiculous, you'll have to first prove that my God does not exist, and my argument for that, my friend, isn't even nearly over. I've several more points to cover. 3. God creating Allah creating a giant squirrel creating a Flying Spaghetti Monster is just an analogy used to explain why there is only one creator. I could have said God created Buddha who created the Somethingorother who created a rather large zucchini, and the point still would have been made. You're far too picky. 4. God never came about. Picture a line. It has no beginning, and no end. Ta da. God. Remember, God is timeless, and because He is timeless, He cannot have a beginning nor an end -- He would have to exist within time, or to be time, to do so. He didn't jump into existence. He just is. Why? I don't know. Why is two two, and why is three three? They just are. Concepts like that are probably timeless as well, but they still seem to affect things quite a lot. 5. The meaning of life is an easy one. To love and be loved by God. Why else would He have created us? To torture us? Wouldn't He, then, be doing a better job of it? Some people live absolutely wonderful lives. Were God to want to torture everyone, this would be Hell. The fact that we can think of Hell, i.e., something worse than this, is proof that we aren't suffering as much as we could, which leads me to believe that God doesn't want the worst for us. He wants the best, hence, Jesus. 6. I'm not reassured by the existence of God. As a matter of fact, I'm quite frightened of being a Christian, and the same goes for every other Christian in existence. You see God as a krutch for the weak, and a solution for the simple. Ignorant. D'you remember the Romans? What happened to the early Christians? Oh, that's right, they were persecuted in the worst imaginable ways, and I don't say this lightly. Humans before this time invented torture. The Romans perfected it. Crucifixion was, and still is the most torturous death known to man, and it was only one of many. Floggings consisted of thirty-nine lashes with the, er, cat of nine tails, or something to that effect. This whip was made of several leather straps, each strap having pieces of broken pottery, glass, and even hooks -- basically anything sharp and/or painful they could find. The Romans would cast the whip in such a manner that it would wrap around the victim, and embed itself into their skin, often very deeply, at which point, they would jerk the handle back, with a slight upward angle. This would basically rip their skin off their backs, and bones were known to fly across to a nearby wall. Sometimes entire hands would be severed. They did this thirty nine times, because they somehow knew that forty lashes would kill a person. Or maybe it was forty, because they knew that forty-one would kill a person....whatever. This was the nicer of the punishments. There was one torture/execution technique that involved heating pincers to extremely high temperatures, then taking people apart piece by piece with these pincers (because at such temperatures, the metal just sank right into the skin -- the pincers weren't sharp, mind you, they were somewhat blunt). Would you like me to go into detail, or have I made my point? Being a Christian isn't easy, and it most certainly isn't a lie. All but one of the twelve disciples were killed in these most horrible ways, yet they all continued to preach. Why would twelve people all be persecuted and tortured throughout the rest of their lives, only to end up dying in such horrible, painful ways for a lie? And what about the other 500 that saw Jesus ascend into Heaven? They suffered the same! But let's not forget about the modern-day Christians. We are still sufferring, so why would we continue to believe it? You call us weak, cowardly, ignorant liers. We call you lucky. 7. Who said that we fight for our lives? Sometimes we do, but only because we aren't finished. I'm not talking about you city-people. I'm talking about missionaries -- the ones so enthusiastic about their beliefs that they want to tell the world, even if the world doesn't want to hear it. We only fight if God wants us to live, which He did quite a lot for the nation of Israel. God was setting the scene for His Son's death, and couldn't do it without Israel. Now, how would I warn people of reality if I had killed myself? Suicide is selfish and stupid. Sure, I'd love to go to Heaven, but not before I've saved as many people's lives as I can. The way I see it, you, the non-believer, are standing in the middle of a road, with a truck about to run you over, but you don't believe that the truck is even there. I want to save your life, but you have to listen first. I can't force you to safety, but I'll most certainly try my hardest to get you there. Don't look at it like a religion. I don't follow a religion. It's just reality. 8. There's positive, and there's negative. Likewise, there's 'God,' and there's 'not God.' When people die, they either find themselves in God (Heaven), or not God (Hell). It makes sense that God created us to be with us, but He gave us a choice, which makes us closer to Him than dinosaurs. Angels can choose, too, but they start out being with God, which makes them farther from God than us. Humans, upon death, are closer to, or farther from, God than any other creature, because we couldn't have had more of a choice. And angels have been around since before dinosaurs. A creature's time spent on Earth doesn't constitute its salvation. You think that I deserve to go to Heaven more than you just because I've been around longer? Again, this isn't religion. It's Christianity. Reality. Religion has rules. Christianity has guidelines. Even the worst of people can become a Christian just before death, and still be saved, despite the fact that they had no chance to "make up for" their "bad deeds." 9. Well duh, the Old Testament is...well...old. It's ancient Mesopotamian culture, which tends to be far more different than today's culture. Why point this out? I'm out of time, now, but I'll get to that last bit of your reply in my next post. Oh, and Nightsy? Male dominated society has been around for ages. Why? It works. May seem sexist to you, but it's true. Even nature does this. One gender cares for the offspring, while the other hunts and defends. And homosexuality is wrong, and I don't need a Bible to prove that. You assumed too quickly what I would say, and you know what assuming does...
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Nightsy
First Novelist
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Posts: 38
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Post by Nightsy on Jul 20, 2009 19:11:59 GMT
I assumed what you were going to say, I didn't assume there was a divine being or anything like that =P Also, I got the 'God is infinite' part right.
You're right, the Bible won't tell me homosexuality is wrong. It'd take a lot more than that, because it's totally natural.
Also, your post isn't directed at me, but I'm jumping in anyway:
Yes, lots and lots of Christians died because of their religion. But lots and lots of people died because of the Church, as I'm sure you know, so one can easily turn the argument back on you that through certain points in history, it has been far easier to be a Christian than anything else.
And you're not actually entertaining the idea of Noah's Ark, are you? I mean, a worldwide flood is one thing, but the idea of a boat in which things were saved is something totally different.
Finally, let's stop asserting that there must be a god. If there must be a god, there'd be no debate in the world. No scientists or philosophers would have any qualms with the notion. The most intellectual people today and throughout history would have never had any doubts. You saying, 'look guys, there must be a god because the universe must have been created. I'm right, you're wrong, the end' just doesn't work.
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Skipper
Beginner Novelist
Posts: 22
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Post by Skipper on Jul 21, 2009 2:24:34 GMT
Well of course, you got the "God is infinite" part right. I've all ready gone over that. In detail. Start at page 5, and continue from there, you should learn what I've written about and what I haven't. But great argument, that, isn't it? I would like to tell you that you're wrong about homosexuality, but that's a different thread. I commented on that, too, would you like to read it?
Jump right on in, then,
The Church was corrupt, and no longer based in Christianity. Not even Catholicism is pure Christianity. They tried to give it loads more rules and laws than it had. In case you were wondering, it has none. It was no longer a Christian church, but a hierarchy of priests who tried to hide behind it like it were a shield so that they could get away with whatever they wanted. Show me purgatory and indulgences in the Bible, and tell me I'm wrong. Jesus worked to exterminate this type of thing. He made a whip out of cords and drove the corruption out of a temple with it. Tell me Jesus wanted the Church to be corrupt. What you see is religion. What I see is reality. It just so happens that Christians are humans too, and humans make mistakes, big and small. But of course, not even the Church persecuted anyone as badly as the Romans did the real Christians. The Church did not consist of the early Christians. It consisted of corrupt rulers who wanted power, and claimed it by manipulating the followers of Christ. D'you think Jesus would approve of their actions? Now tell me this: How do the twelve disciples and their persecutions relate to the corrupt Church persecuting others? The original Christians suffered. The fake Christians caused suffering. Now do you understand?
Oh ho! Are you really prepared to back that up, Nightsy? Lemme guess, you live in the UK, or the US, right? Somewhere rich? Here's something you can try come your next holiday/vacation. Go to China, Japan, Korea, anywhere in the Middle East, Turkey perhaps, or some recently discovered island. Next, I want to you stand on a large box, and yell "I am a Christian." That's it. That's you have to do. You don't have to tell me about it -- you won't be able to. Dead people can't talk. Do you know anything of underground churches? Did you listen to anything I said before? Do I really need to go into detail on the Roman torture techniques? This didn't happen to only twelve people, you know. Christianity spread like wildfire over the next few centuries, and let me tell you, Roman executioners never had a dull day after that.
Yes I am defending Noah's Ark. I've got a little experiment for you to do on the subject, as a matter of fact. I want you to go to Mt. Ararat, and I want you to climb it. If you can climb up to where we think the Ark landed, I'll most certainly listen to you. And what is wrong with a boat carrying species? It's a big ship, and no one's disputing that it could hold all those animals. The only point of dispute is about the worldwide flood. 'Cept maybe with you. But if you believe in evolution, then all Noah had to do was bring a few cells on board. Ta da. Animals.
You didn't read anything I wrote, did you? I suppose no one did. Must I repeat myself? Look. I explained why God existed. You didn't listen. This is why there are still qualms over the matter. We are right. You are wrong. That's my belief, and I dare you to change it. But to do that, you're going to have to prove me wrong.
Sorry, Evil, if any of this sounds like flaming. I don't mean to offend.
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Skipper
Beginner Novelist
Posts: 22
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Post by Skipper on Jul 21, 2009 2:45:44 GMT
Evil, The difference between the OT and NT is that the Law is no longer carried out as a legal system of punishment because God punished Jesus instead. The Law was given to teach what sin is (Romans 7:7), to teach us how hopelessly sinful we are (Romans 7:13-14), to teach us the righteousness of God through the punishments for sin (Heb 9:22 and Romans 2:9-13), and to teach us the idea of a sacrifice to take our punishment and remove that condemnation of sin (Heb. 9:12-14). Once Christ came, the Law with all of it’s punishments was obsolete. Still, it had a purpose at one time. Sorry for the double-post. I forgot this bit.
And Nightsy, if you have a problem with me saying that God can do whatever He very well pleases, being, as He is, omnipotent and omniscient, read this article. I have more if you need better explanations for things, like where we got the Bible. There you go, RabbitDrive, the Bible's accurate. (No, I'm not the Crazy Pastor. I just like his articles.)
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Nightsy
First Novelist
Back off - I know the mods.
Posts: 38
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Post by Nightsy on Jul 21, 2009 7:54:52 GMT
I'm in no way saying that Jesus would've approved, Skipper. I've read my Bible, and Jesus seems like a decent enough bloke. I'm not going to debate with you on who killed the most people, because I really don't think that makes any difference. I was simply stating that in some parts of the world (be it richer or poorer) at certain times, it has been easier to be a Christian than not. That's true, and what you're saying is also true. I think we're in agreement?
@your Noah's Ark argument: That would warrant a stupidly fast evolution explosion. And that's a confusing timeline. Where do dinosaurs fit in? It would be interesting if the flood was the very thing that wiped them out.
You're asserting the Cosmological argument - one of the most simple and famous arguments in favour of a god's existence - to be absolute proof of a god. A - there are plenty of holes in that argument, and B - you're one of the very, very few theists who would actually state it to be proof. Most would just cite it as a reason. That's not to say you're wrong, just, well, rare.
I have no problems with you saying God can do whatever He pleases. If He should exist, His omnipotence would be entirely unsurprising.
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MJBlack
Experienced Novelist
Posts: 136
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Post by MJBlack on Jul 21, 2009 15:35:07 GMT
My head hurts, you people and your intellectual conversations amaze me. As to that end I prefer simple logical explanations and things I might be tempted to make heads or at least tails of.
And since I'm extremely lazy I'll dive in at the less complicated part of this debate. The fact that most opinions on God's existence stem from the bible - a book so polluted and opinionated that one must be careful what is quoted, believed or drawn from. If anybody wishes to debate this point in question I'll happily go into it, but I think /most/ people will be able to see where I'm coming from.
@the meaning of life: I presume that is a point of opinion rather than fact, it certainly only refers to a small target of people considering the billions living on this earth. Suffice to say I don't agree with this point, but until one can disprove God's existence arguing that the meaning of life is something different just doesn't cut it. It makes no difference if the meaning of life is infact sausages.
@being a Christian is fearful and difficult: I say to this bollock, absolute bollocks. That's like me saying that being a Wiccan is fearful and difficult, and that all Wiccans have the same mindset about it as me. (Just to clear this up I'm not Wiccan but was.) Pagans/Wiccans went through horrible persecution at the hands of Christians. Many still do, although certainly nothing like it used to be. You make it sound like being a Christian is horrible, and the worst thing ever - I suggest you either reword this or make it clear. I certainly don't agree. I don't actually see how it supports the idea that God exists either.
@saving people: What now? 0.o That's really all I can say, I'm not sure where you were going with this. It makes you come across as the typical, preaching lunatic that turn up at our doorstep saying believing in /their God/ is the only way to Salvation. Well thanks but no thanks xD.
@old testimate, well duh: But to me alot of your views seem outdated and certainly too focused on the past - like everything in the bible is fact rather than opinion or perhaps wrong. You seem to take things people say and take then in a completely different way.
@i proved God exists: No, you didn't. You gave us a reason he could exist, why he could exist and then went off on a tangent about how Christians were persecuted and still have it hard. Actually this is the same for all religions and all people and all beliefs so I'd say it was pretty much moot. The problem with using facts is that they might be true but it doesn't mean that makes the opinions true. At all.
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Nightsy
First Novelist
Back off - I know the mods.
Posts: 38
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Post by Nightsy on Jul 21, 2009 17:54:09 GMT
Because I have a little free time at the minute, and fancied reading through the beginning pages.I think He does. He's worked a lot of amazing wonders in my life and comforted me when I need Him most. Circular reasoning. 'God exists because He's done nice things for me', or, shortened, 'God indicates nice things indicates God'. Also a form of an Appeal to Consequences and an Appeal to Emotion. 'God exists because I like to think somebody's made nice things happen to me, rather than it being chance' and 'God makes me feel better', respectively. To me the Big Bang and Evolution doesn't make sense at all. I mean, who created the soup? There had to be a creator at some point *HEADDESK* Silly Argumentum ad Ignorantium (Appeal to Ignorance) is silly. Just because you can't comprehend the Big Bang, Evolution and Abiogenesis, which you seem to have missed out, does not mean they didn't happen. And why need there be a creator at some point? You can't just assert that and then go kthxbai. Also, I watched this movie...I think was Expelled...anyways, most of the evolutionists didn't even answer the questions! They just kept going on and saying the same thing over and over again. It was irritating in a way. ... And? So because some evolutionists in some film were bad at interviews/you didn't understand their points, evolution is wrong, or something? I'm taking it you've never seen Kirk Cameron and his banana theory in a debate. If you had, with your reasoning, you'd be denying creation. but until I find a reason to not believe in god, I should believe in him... *MOAR HEADDESK* The burden of proof is on the one making the claims. It is not up to the non-believer to prove God's non-existence, it is up to the believer to prove His existence. Thus, the logical thing to do is to not believe until you are convinced He exists. It's exactly the same set-up as a court trial. Science is limited by human imagination. It's hardly solid. A lot of the time it's pretty wrong too, think of how the Earth was the centre of the universe... Imagination? Where are you making the link between science and imagination at all? You think the early evolutionists just imagined up evidence for natural selection? Well it's certainly not liquid. See, the most brilliant thing about science is that it changes. It corrects itself when it is wrong. It gathers more evidence, repeats more findings and changes. It's because of science that we now know the world is not the centre of the Universe. As opposed to the Church, who hugely supported a central Earth, and acted often forcefully against any new progress that contradicted it. Besides, there's no actual proof of evolution. Even some scientists would say that. I see you're not bothering to differentiate between micro and macro-evolution then. Micro-evolution has been proven. End of story, good bye. Macro-evolution has not, but is supported. So I don't know which scientists you're talking to. Evolution believes that the universe happened by chanceNo it doesn't. Natural selection is a non-random process. Do you know what atheists believed before the Big Bang theory? Atheism wasn't invented when they came up with the big bang theory. It existed before then. They believed at the time that the universe was eternal and had always existed. They didn't believe it had a beginning. It's not logically impossible to believe there is something above us (such as the universe or a god) that is higher than we are and has always been around. A. let's stop categorising all atheists as exactly the same. There's no dogma; it's not a religion. They are free to have different theories. B. A lot of them still think that the universe has always existed. Are you saying this is illogical? It's not. C. The Big Bang was not the beginning of the universe. It was the beinning of the universe as we know it today. Nobody's suggesting everything started from nothing, even though that's possible. D. Well obviously it's not impossible, because people do. It's just eventually, scientists discovered a lot of evidence that pointed to the fact that the universe MUST have had a beginning. It became logically hard to believe that it didn't and that's when they came up with the big bang theory. Please stop pretending you know what you're talking about. And of course, once you come to that conclusion, the natural question people ask is,"What existed before the Big Bang?" Scientists have come nowhere close to finding an answer to that question and they dodge it by trying to ask the Christians what existed before their God did. We never claimed our God had a beginning, but you guys claimed the universe did. If you're going to make any kind of claim like that, can't you at least think it through and find an answer instead of immediately blaming Christians for your lack of knowledge? What happened before the Big bang? Well, dear, the natural resources that have always existed - they existed. =] No, but you claimed a god existed, so it'd be lovely if you could verify that. Scientists asked you questions totally rightly. Don't try and shift the burden of proof and make out that they were just annoyed because you were right and they were wrong. And you believe that we're hairless monkeys who shape-shifted over thousands of years out of slime. . Not correct terminology, but pretty much. Oh, and it's millions and millions of years, by the way. Thousands, pfft. Aaaaaaaand my time's run out. I might get back to this some other time. It's funny - because, well, you've got to either laugh or cry, really.
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Skipper
Beginner Novelist
Posts: 22
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Post by Skipper on Jul 22, 2009 0:11:00 GMT
Actually, I'm not willing to agree that Christianity is easy. It isn't, whether or not you think so. I suppose it's a matter of opinion, but honestly, a real Christian shouldn't have an easy time. I certainly don't, and I know the same goes for my Christian friends. We're not exactly the soft, happy, flowery people most atheists imagine. Be careful who you're talking to next time you say Christianity is easy. Look through history, you'll find that you're quite wrong.
Well that's enough on that matter.
1. Exactly. See how ridiculous that sounds? That's just what evolution sounds like to someone like me. I'm making a point, Nightsy, don't take me too seriously.
And I never said dinosaurs were there. They could have died ages before that, or perhaps they never did board the Ark. Interesting prospect, is it not? Were that the case, they clearly weren't species God wanted to exist (I can name a few reasons as to why.).
2. Great. I'm asserting an argument. Now show me the holes. Before one can go, prancing around, telling other people that they're wrong, one must learn why these people are wrong. If you all ready know why, then please explain this to me so that I may reconsider my stance on the issue. And for the record, I'm not one of a few. I'm one of many Christians who believe themselves to be utterly correct. I have no doubts about God's existence, and I haven't yet finished my argument on the matter. And on yet another note, I don't reuse arguments very often. I actually based my opinions about why God absolutely must exist on my own conclusions. I started from scratch, so to speak. So don't think me biased -- I truly believe God exists.
@ MJ Black
The Bible has been proven to be quite accurate, though is often claimed by the media to be "polluted and unreliable." I do believe I posted a link on that in my last post.
1. The meaning of life isn't an opinion. It's basic logic. Although I've not yet covered this point, God created humans to love and be loved by. Basically, He wanted creatures that could choose Him, rather than being totally innocent and therefore further from Him. See, whatever created the Universe must have had a reason -- why else create it? Either the creator wanted to love us or hate us, and, as explained before, if He hated us, then we'd most certainly be suffering worse than we currently are (after all, we can imagine something worse).
2. Being a Christian most certainly is the hardest thing I could have done, or could currently be doing. Perhaps it is just the mindset of you people who live in rich countries away from persecution, but everyone persecutes Christians. Those who persecute cannot be Christians, because Christianity preaches against persecution. How can something that preaches against persecution have followers who persecute? It cannot. Either it doesn't preach against persecution (and it is quite obvious that it does), or the followers aren't really following it. REAL Christians don't persecute. REAL Christians don't murder. REAL Christians are sorry if they do, and thenceforth repent (which means "turn away," for those of you who don't know). If you disagree, then I should have the right to call myself an atheist, as I go around preaching the Gospel. Does that sound right? No, of course not! Simply because I call myself an eagle does not mean I can fly. In the same way, just because I call myself a Christian does not mean that I am. It's people like that who ruin the reputation of REAL Christians.
3. I once met an atheist who was rather well known. He thought he could out-argue any Christian who came his way, and so he waited and waited for some preacher out of a local church to come his way. But none came. Oh, he made his name known, and everyone in the area knew very well how anti-Christian he was. But still no one came. To this day, he has never considered being a Christian, and this is why: Christians know very well that someone who dies an atheist goes to Hell. Well, this atheist was very upset at the churches because no one tried to prevent this from happening. They just acted like he was never there. He figured that if he were going to be hit by a truck, none of the Christians would bother to save him. After all, they didn't seem to care about his eternal fate. That is why I refuse to let an atheist slip by. Now tell me I should stop.
What? You can't even spell the word "Testament" correctly -- how do I know you know anything about it? I wasn't saying anything like that. I was explaining to Evil Inclination why the Law of Moses from the Bible seems to harsh. Why these laws do not define Christianity. Why Christianity isn't violent. Why these laws don't apply. And I take things the wrong way?
3 points for use of the word "tangent."
I told you why He MUST exist on page 5. I told Nightsy this. I then responded to her claim that Christians have it easy. We don't. Get over it. Christianity in NO WAY compares to religions. It is different. Religions have rules. Christianity has guidelines. The only things that might be considered "rules" or "laws," are the facts that one must believe that Jesus was Who He said He was, that He did die in our place, and quite importantly that God exists. You then have to choose sides. These aren't rules. It's just reality. Think of it like this: In order to get out of the way of a careening truck speeding toward you, you first have to believe that the truck exists. You then must see that someone is able and willing to help. You then must decide whether or not to take this person's hand so that they may pull you to safety. It's not religion. It's reality. None of these things are redundant, or demanding. They're logical steps to living eternally with the Whoeveritwas that created the Universe. Islam. That's religion. You must complete the five pillars of Islam. One of these pillars includes traveling to Mecca. That's redundant and pointless and demanding. Therefore, Islam is a religion.
If you can find something pointless and redundant and demanding in it, it is a religion. The Law of Moses in the OT? I explained this.
The difference between the OT and NT is that the Law is no longer carried out as a legal system of punishment because God punished Jesus instead. The Law was given to teach what sin is (Romans 7:7), to teach us how hopelessly sinful we are (Romans 7:13-14), to teach us the righteousness of God through the punishments for sin (Heb 9:22 and Romans 2:9-13), and to teach us the idea of a sacrifice to take our punishment and remove that condemnation of sin (Heb. 9:12-14).
Once Christ came, the Law with all of it’s punishments was obsolete. Still, it had a purpose at one time.
Okay... that was out there. But they were not opinions. They were facts. Some had opinions, but they were based on FACTS. Here, spell it with me. F-A-C-T-S. These opinions were not used as facts. They were used to make points that may not be seen when only the facts are presented. For instance, those people say two plus two equals twenty two. Those are stupid people. The clause in red is the fact, and the blue the opinion. The fact supported the opinion, and the opinion emphasized the intention of presenting the fact in the first place. In other words, I meant to say that those people are stupid, but I could not do this without presenting a fact. That is why I presented the fact. Did I break that down enough?
Look, I'm not here to argue. I'm here to answer questions concerning my beliefs, because I believe that you are in danger of losing your lives. Like any good person would, I am trying to lead you to safety, but to do that, I must prove to you that you are in danger.
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MJBlack
Experienced Novelist
Posts: 136
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Post by MJBlack on Jul 22, 2009 3:57:29 GMT
Let us assume that you are wrong, and we aren't in danger, because otherwise you'll keep on bulling ahead with opinions you deem as fact and shan't be able to accept what we're saying. I've seen this in a few instances from you already.
@christianity isn't easy: Okay I am willing to conceed that for some Christians it isn't easy. I'm also willing to conceed that you don't view the majority of Christians I know to be infact true Christians. Many of them persecute others, don't follow the bible very closely and do everything you say a true Christian shouldn't do. Because of this I'm willing to take what you view as a Christian for the majority of these debating points. Seem fair?
@christianity isn't easy point 2: There are many groups who can claim similar things. As I mentioned earlier Pagans were persecuted a lot, believed to be witches. Because of this misunderstanding many Wiccans still get a lot of grief about their religion. Whether or not Christianity is easy is irrelevant to whether God exists - to be more specific your God. I presume you're willing to go with ANY God though because other religions and people of those religions go through persecution too which points to the fact that they are willing to for their God whether he is the true God and exists or not.
@the bible: I didn't really bother to click on the link for a few reasons. I know that I'm right about the Bible not being a good source of fact. Let me give you an example: "Thou shall not suffer a poisioner to live" was changed by Henry (I think) to read, "thou shall not suffer a witch to live." And that really is just a minor fact. There are many contradictions in the bible too. One example is thus:
PRO 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
ECC 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.
Besides of which is the bible to be taken literally or are parts of it parables? I've heard both sides of the coin, but if it's literally then boy are their things that just don't make sense and have been proven, by science, to be... well extremely unlikely.
@meaning of life: It is only logical to one who believes in God. And so only makes sense to you. To me it seems like gibberish.
"I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy." (JER 13:14) "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not, but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling."
This is your God? I'm sure there are plenty of quotes which advocate the "truth" - that God is there to love us and forgive and pity us, but I'd rather you didn't. Or maybe I took it out of context. I don't really care, it is yet another contradiction and really puts your view in a less than pleasing light. Everything God is becomes a paradox or the strongest contradiction yet.
I also disagree, I can't think of a worse hell than Earth.
@at atheism: Ah I see, it's a pity thing. Don't worry I'm not an atheist I just don't believe in God. I don't believe in a set religion is all.
@can't spell testament: Oh my might I be mildly dyslexic? Dear me I can't spell a word right all the time, I must not know anything about it. Really that was slightly petty. And useless.
@christianity is reality not religion: Actually it's religion, while being a reality to you. Otherwise Wicca is a reality and not a religion because it only has guidelines too. All Wiccans have to do is believe that nature is alive (no duh!) and that is it. For those that believe in their religion THAT is the reality. You can't make such a ridiculous claim that yours above all others is reality.
And I can find plenty of things I deem reduntent and demanding about Christianity. Whoops. Must be a religion.
And no you explained why you believed God existed. To me it was lolz, it explained nothing but your opinion perhaps based in some degree of fact. It itself was not fact.
@ They were facts: Don't presume I need things "breaking down" because I stand by what I said. Opinions based on facts aren't always true. While the facts are there they've been interpreted in a certain way. That is all. And that was a very bad example. Here let me try it *grins*
Those people say that two plus two equals twenty two. They are all intelligent people making a silly remark.
Those people say that two plus two equals twenty two. They aren't very good at math.
Do you see where /I'm/ going with this or do /I/ need to make it clearer for /you/. Each end is an opinion based on a fact, really doesn't make it true.
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Post by Evil Inclination on Jul 22, 2009 12:19:33 GMT
2. Being a Christian most certainly is the hardest thing I could have done, or could currently be doing. Perhaps it is just the mindset of you people who live in rich countries away from persecution, but everyone persecutes Christians.And yet, all out through the middle ages Christians persecuted and tortured Jews. Either forcing them to convert or killing them, and they're still Christians, technically, they may not believe in everything it represents but I'm not technically an Atheist, I belong to a religion technically but I don't believe in that stuff. Other than that all of it was covered and won by MJBlack. And please don't feel as if you're flaming me, there's one of you and ten of us.
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