avian
Experienced Novelist
Posts: 78
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Post by avian on May 1, 2009 20:26:03 GMT
Damsel, that last thing mad eabsolutely no sense. Pixie did not contradict herself so don't try a slippery slope. Point is she never said you were wrong, she said we'll never know if you're wrong or right.
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Post by damselindistress on May 1, 2009 22:37:14 GMT
Damsel, that last thing mad eabsolutely no sense. Pixie did not contradict herself so don't try a slippery slope. Point is she never said you were wrong, she said we'll never know if you're wrong or right. Let me try to explain it a different way then because you misunderstood what I said if you think it's a slippery slope fallacy. She said there was no way to know if there was a right or wrong to anything that people argue over. She said if there's even a shadow of a doubt, not 100% proof so that no one argues over it, then there's no way to know the truth about that thing. That's the belief in skepticism. I quoted the wikipedia article for it. Did you know that not all people believe in skepticism? Some people believe that there IS a way to know the truth, even without 100% proof (me included.) There's a lot of people who believe that way, in fact. She was the one who said that if there's any argument about any issue, then you don't know that it's 100% true otherwise there wouldn't be an argument over it. People argue all the time over the belief that you need absolute proof to know something is the truth and therefore, by her logic, she can't call me wrong for saying I believe that I know the truth and that you can know the truth because then she'd be contradicting her own statement. I want her 100% proof that skepticism is real, otherwise she should not be saying it's real in this thread and using it as "proof" that I should stop speaking, since she's angry I'm claiming things are the truth without 100% proof myself.
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p.ix.ie
Experienced Novelist
I don't break hearts; I just dent them.
Posts: 78
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Post by p.ix.ie on May 2, 2009 2:50:43 GMT
Actually, I didn't mean that you can't believe something without proof. I meant that you shouldn't tell other people that they are wrong. period. It's not polite, it's not kind, even if you're 100% sure about something.That's all I wanted to say.
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Post by damselindistress on May 2, 2009 3:28:01 GMT
Actually, I didn't mean that you can't believe something without proof. I meant that you shouldn't tell other people that they are wrong. period. It's not polite, it's not kind, even if you're 100% sure about something.That's all I wanted to say. But aren't you telling me I'm wrong for telling other people they are wrong? That's not kind or polite by your logic.
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p.ix.ie
Experienced Novelist
I don't break hearts; I just dent them.
Posts: 78
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Post by p.ix.ie on May 2, 2009 14:55:28 GMT
I'm sorry, if that's what you thought I was doing. It's not that your wrong when you tell other people that they're wrong, it's that I don't feel like you're respecting their beliefs. It's perfectly fine to disagree with someone, perfectly fine to tell them that you disagree, but I don't think it's nice to flat out tell people that they're wrong. And it's even ok if you don't think what I just said was true, I'd just like you to actually listen to what I'm saying. If someone wants to change what I think, they'll be able to do it a lot easier if they at least pretend to see my side, instead of just saying "Here's why your wrong". That's all.
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Post by Evil Inclination on May 2, 2009 14:59:23 GMT
Damsel In Distress please stop attacking pixie, she's being much more respectable about your beliefs, so just calm down please. Last warning before I lock this thread.
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Post by damselindistress on May 2, 2009 19:06:15 GMT
@evil Inclination: How is she much more respectful of my beliefs? =/ I am just reversing the same logic she is using on me on her own self. She called me unkind and impolite and all those words first for expressing my opinion, so I showed her in turn how she's having a double-standard by not applying it to herself.
I really think you are just saying that because you disagree with my opinion.
If anyone should have felt attacked in this thread, it should be me because every single person on this thread has argued and told me how I was wrong for saying everything I said, but I am NOT offended because I'm not putting my feelings into this thread. I am just discussing the truth with all of you.
Seriously, why is she allowed to call me unkind and impolite and I wasn't allowed to use her same logic back at her?
That's what she said to me and I'm just supposed to lay there and just take being called unkind and impolite? I thought you were after the truth Evil Inclinations. That's what you said in other threads, but you don't want to hear someone who believes that the kind of thing she calls tolerance isn't tolerance at all.
The ironic thing is I don't THINK that she's unkind or impolite for telling me that I am wrong. It's fine to be told you are wrong and argued with. I'm just showing her how that viewpoint she has is a double-standard and trying to show her that it's okay to be argued against.
@p.ix.ie: But YOU are flat out telling ME that I am wrong for debating with others.
Don't tell me I am wrong if you really believe telling other people they are wrong is wrong.
And who says I can't see your side? I can, too. I used to believe everything that you did, but I wisened up after I took some philosophy classes.
Besides, I have not seen you once acknowledge that my side could be at all correct. Aren't you doing the EXACT same thing?
Let me show you an example of what I mean that my teacher wrote.
Seriously, you need to separate your feelings from your debating. Unfortunately, when I debate people I can, but they usually can't. I would not view you guys negatively on any other part of the forum for arguing with me here, but I already know that you guys are stuck on a negative viewpoint of me, especially since you just accused me several times of "attacking" other people on here.
Attacking a belief is not the same thing as attacking an individual. You are NOT your beliefs. When you stop believing something and change your mind about it, do you stop existing? No, you're still the same person. It's not an argument attacking you as an individual, it's an argument attacking an idea. You are not an idea. We're discussing what the truth is. Separate yourself from your ideas.
Beliefs need to be argued over vigorously if we want to find the truth about any issue. If we just piddle around and tell people to believe whatever they feel like believing, then we'll never find out the truth about anything. We'll just be randomly guided by our emotions to believe whatever we want.
If you say you have an answer to a math problem and you're really positive that you have the right answer and your math teacher says you are wrong, is that being intolerant even though she's telling you that you're wrong or is she just teaching you the truth?
I think you are probably an American (although sorry if I am wrong, but I am going to use example of Americans in the next statements.) America is very strong about freedom of speech and the right to believe whatever you wish. People often think this means that no one should speak up for what they believe in because that violates other people's rights to believe, but it doesn't. I'm not forcing you to believe anything I say by arguing with you and I'm not even name calling you. We're just trying to figure out what the truth is.
Back when the founding fathers made the constitution, they fought vigorously with each other every day about it. They understood that we'd all be stupid and uneducated if we never heard viewpoints that differed from ours ever. They learned to separate their feelings from their debating and to understand that just because someone disagreed with you, didn't mean they hated you as a person. The constitution was one of the most IMPRESSIVE and INTELLIGENT documents ever made in history and it was only created because people vigorously fought each other over every little point in it until they came to some good conclusions. In fact, they encouraged each other to bring up any kind of opposition they had to any part of the document.
Do you know anything about the U.S. Supreme Court? There are two members on there, Antonin Scalia (who is an extreme conservative) and Ruth Ginsburg (who is an extreme liberal) and they argue every day with each other at work over the court cases. You'd think they'd hate each other, right? It's not "nice" or "polite" to tell other people they are wrong, so they must be really hurt by the other person. Nope. They are INSEPERABLE. They go on vacation all the time together and they are best friends because they can separate their feelings from their beliefs.
It never feels fun to have your beliefs argued against, but I get mine argued against all the time. Like I told you, I take philosophy classes and you have no idea how many times I started arguing for a view on something and my teacher completely defeated my belief in front of the entire class. It's embarrassing, but I learn a whole lot when he does that.
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Post by Evil Inclination on May 3, 2009 4:02:16 GMT
She didn't say you were impolite or unkind, rather that what you were doing was. You said it yourself, your beliefs are not who you are. I'm not one to go against you just because I disagree with you, that's a much bigger insult, trust me.
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Post by damselindistress on May 3, 2009 4:44:43 GMT
She didn't say you were impolite or unkind, rather that what you were doing was. You said it yourself, your beliefs are not who you are. I'm not one to go against you just because I disagree with you, that's a much bigger insult, trust me. So then you guys are agreeing with me? Because you just repeated and agreed with everything I said. I'm glad I convinced you of the truth. I agree, fully, that she should be allowed to disagree with me without being accused of being intolerant and rude. She's not personally attacking me, just what I believe in and everyone should be allowed to express their beliefs and call other people wrong for not agreeing with them. It's part of life and logic. Just don't forget to apply that truth to me as well and not just her. Now that you agree that arguing with someone's beliefs isn't an insult, you can stop calling me impolite, intolerant, and unkind for saying some of your beliefs are wrong and we can continue debating over the existence of God and calling things we disagree with wrong without getting angry or emotional at one another.
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Post by Evil Inclination on May 3, 2009 6:03:47 GMT
Twisitng my beliefs will get you nowhere and you're contradicting what you said in the previous post. Locked, I warned you and it's just gotten out of hand. Sorry.
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