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Post by Evil Inclination on Apr 28, 2009 10:48:05 GMT
Chris21, that's not so much of an argument and more of preaching religion, which isn't too wise. You didn't say why, only "Do this," or "Do that," because, "It'll help you in life."
I'm not saying your opinion is wrong, but it's a debating thread not a preaching religion thread.
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Post by damselindistress on Apr 28, 2009 18:27:01 GMT
Chris21, that's not so much of an argument and more of preaching religion, which isn't too wise. You didn't say why, only "Do this," or "Do that," because, "It'll help you in life." I'm not saying your opinion is wrong, but it's a debating thread not a preaching religion thread. I'm going to agree with you. I'm a Christian, but I don't like how most Christians "debate." They don't use logic or proof. They just say they "feel" it is right and that their "experiences" tell them it is. But it's an interesting story about your life. Just not helpful to a debate.
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p.ix.ie
Experienced Novelist
I don't break hearts; I just dent them.
Posts: 78
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Post by p.ix.ie on Apr 28, 2009 21:01:23 GMT
There's lots to argue in this thread. avian: Creation and Evolution are opposite beliefs. Evolution believes that the universe happened by chance and Creation believes that some kind of being purposefully created everything. Actually, Evolution is simply the belief that organisms adapt to survive in their environment, which is proven. Creation and Evolution(Not even the same Evolution as above because that Evolution is definitely real) aren't actually opposite, Creationists believe that God created everything, If you take the Bible 100% literally, then I can understand why people might believe that Evolution and Creation can't exist together, but if believe there's any room for interpretation, then they could both exist. The actual meaning of Evolution is; ev⋅o⋅lu⋅tion /ˌɛvəˈluʃən or, especially Brit., ˌivə-/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ev-uh-loo-shuhn or, especially Brit., ee-vuh-] Show IPA –noun 1. any process of formation or growth; development: the evolution of a language; the evolution of the airplane. 2. a product of such development; something evolved: The exploration of space is the evolution of decades of research. 3. Biology. change in the gene pool of a population from generation to generation by such processes as mutation, natural selection, and genetic drift. 4. a process of gradual, peaceful, progressive change or development, as in social or economic structure or institutions. 5. a motion incomplete in itself, but combining with coordinated motions to produce a single action, as in a machine. 6. a pattern formed by or as if by a series of movements: the evolutions of a figure skater. 7. an evolving or giving off of gas, heat, etc. 8. Mathematics. the extraction of a root from a quantity. Compare involution (def. 8). 9. a movement or one of a series of movements of troops, ships, etc., as for disposition in order of battle or in line on parade. 10. any similar movement, esp. in close order drill. I think that a lot of people are unaware of what evolution actually is. Now, the idea that everything on Earth slowly evolved over time from a single cell or something like that, isn't actually what the word evolution means. So to say "I don't believe in evolution." really only makes you sound ignorant.
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Post by damselindistress on Apr 28, 2009 22:49:03 GMT
No, I know EXACTLY what I am talking about. The word evolution has many different meanings, of course. I mean, I've said before that I've "evolved" as a person. It's a common word that means "to change" that we use in more than just science. Most of those definitions have nothing to do with science, they have to do with the usage of the word "evolution." But the theory of evolution is different. Notice, that it's still called A THEORY by even scientists because that part is still a theory. What you are getting confused with evolution is NATURAL SELECTION. Natural Selection is NEVER called a theory. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_selectionI believe in Natural selection, too, of course. I mean, I believe in Adam and Eve and yet we have all these different races that came just from two human beings. I'd HAVE to believe in Natural Selection, that we changed over time, otherwise where did all the different races come from? Natural Selection is the process Charles Darwin observed in the Galapagos islands on the Beagle Voyage. He saw that there was various birds there that were the same but had different beak sizes depending on their location. He realized this was because having a certain type of beak size helped them survive on each of the islands better because it helped them get food better (the size of beak they needed to have depended on the island.) He realized NATURE and what made it easiest to survive in nature were the traits that would be passed on to the next generation because only those traits would survive. Nature selects what traits will survive. Hence the term NATURAL SELECTION. THEN after he found that all out, he came up with the theory of evolution. Besides, you are claiming that the theory of evolution isn't the name of what we were referring to and not giving us the "real" name for what we are referring to. I know both the name of what you are talking about and the name of what we were talking about, so until you give me the "real" word for it, I don't think I'm going to believe what you said. Scientists don't just come up with theories and ideas and not give them a name for that theory or idea. Although I understand how you could get them confused because they are very closely related. But even if you are right, that doesn't matter. We weren't referring to that part of evolution or arguing about that part. We were arguing over the origin of all life and whether or not the word evolution has anything to do with the origin of life, you still can't believe that the origin of life was both purposeful and accidental at the same time, so swapping the definition of my word doesn't negate what I said.
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p.ix.ie
Experienced Novelist
I don't break hearts; I just dent them.
Posts: 78
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Post by p.ix.ie on Apr 29, 2009 2:47:27 GMT
No, I know EXACTLY what I am talking about. The word evolution has many different meanings, of course. I mean, I've said before that I've "evolved" as a person. It's a common word that means "to change" that we use in more than just science. Most of those definitions have nothing to do with science, they have to do with the usage of the word "evolution." But the theory of evolution is different. Notice, that it's still called A THEORY by even scientists because that part is still a theory. What you are getting confused with evolution is NATURAL SELECTION. Natural Selection is NEVER called a theory. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_selectionI believe in Natural selection, too, of course. I mean, I believe in Adam and Eve and yet we have all these different races that came just from two human beings. I'd HAVE to believe in Natural Selection, that we changed over time, otherwise where did all the different races come from? Natural Selection is the process Charles Darwin observed in the Galapagos islands on the Beagle Voyage. He saw that there was various birds there that were the same but had different beak sizes depending on their location. He realized this was because having a certain type of beak size helped them survive on each of the islands better because it helped them get food better (the size of beak they needed to have depended on the island.) He realized NATURE and what made it easiest to survive in nature were the traits that would be passed on to the next generation because only those traits would survive. Nature selects what traits will survive. Hence the term NATURAL SELECTION. THEN after he found that all out, he came up with the theory of evolution. Besides, you are claiming that the theory of evolution isn't the name of what we were referring to and not giving us the "real" name for what we are referring to. I know both the name of what you are talking about and the name of what we were talking about, so until you give me the "real" word for it, I don't think I'm going to believe what you said. Scientists don't just come up with theories and ideas and not give them a name for that theory or idea. Although I understand how you could get them confused because they are very closely related. But even if you are right, that doesn't matter. We weren't referring to that part of evolution or arguing about that part. We were arguing over the origin of all life and whether or not the word evolution has anything to do with the origin of life, you still can't believe that the origin of life was both purposeful and accidental at the same time, so swapping the definition of my word doesn't negate what I said. I know what Natural Selection is, thanks. I just had a test on it, actually, and I got 105% (ec. points). My point was simply to make everyone aware that evolution has more than one meaning and that to say "I don't believe in evolution" sounds uneducated, therefore, when using the term outside of a thread like this, it would be best to be a bit more specific. Whether or not you believe in God and Creation should really be a personal matter and I'm not going to try to argue anyone out of their belief. I think that whether you believe in Creation, Evolution, or a little of both, none of us should be saying "your wrong" because none of us know, do we? If we did there wouldn't be any point to this discussion. I guess what offends me is that I don't think it's right to say "Creation and Evolution can't both exist" because maybe they sound like they contradict each other, but no one knows how things happened. It isn't right to say that other people are wrong when you don't know any more yourself. I don't know how things happened, but I do believe certain things. But I could be wrong and so could any of us.
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Post by Kyriakos on Apr 29, 2009 5:19:51 GMT
Basiclly at the moment atheists and religists are locked in a stalemate because neither side can produce undisputable evidence that God doesn't or does exist.
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Post by damselindistress on Apr 29, 2009 23:14:15 GMT
Is that how you guys get people to stop arguing and shut-up about their opinions by saying that no one can discern the complete truth? Who cares if you can't prove without a shadow of a doubt that something is true or false? It's very hard to find 100% proof for anything in life, but you should always debate issues and try to find the truth about everything as well as you can. It doesn't mean we should all be lazy and just sit around and believe whatever we want to uneducatedly because it's hard or next to impossible to find the truth, it means we need to work EXTRA hard to get as close to the truth as possible. It's a challenge, not a hole that we are trapped in. Like, history. It's a class we take in school, but history experts still argue over the majority of historical facts and whether we teach them accurately right now. Is there any way to prove that we are teaching/learning them accurately? No because you can't go back in time and re-visit them and even if we could as I said in my first post in this thread our eyes often trick us and we can see or hear things that aren't accurate. Very few historical events are actually documented by photographs or videos and even if they were, we'd probably debate over whether those things were authentic and real or not. (Like there are lots of people out there who believe that Neil Armstrong never set foot on the moon even though we have it on television and that the whole thing was staged by the government. It's very "hard" to prove with 100% certainty that those people are wrong in their beliefs, but that doesn't mean it's a logical belief to agree with when there's more proof on our side. This is how you should handle everything in life, accept the side as truth that has the most evidence for it, even if that evidence isn't 100%.) Have you heard this quote from Ambrose Bierce? "[History is] An account mostly false, of events mostly unimportant, which are brought about by rulers mostly knaves, and soldiers mostly fools." You have no idea how many times I have heard the debate over whether or not the civil war (I'm talking about American history for those in another country) was fought over slavery. There's lots of people who have an opinion on either side of this issue and I've even had teachers who disagree with each other about it, but that doesn't mean learning about the civil war, why it was fought, and what it did to our country is a waste. It's important to learn history. You know this quote from George Santayana: "Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it." We don't want to repeat it's mistakes, so even though we are not 100% certain about everything about it doesn't mean we ignore it. web.cn.edu/kwheeler/fallacies_list.htmlAnd I didn't say anything about evolution being wrong (yet.) I did say the idea of believe that something happened by chance (evolution) and on purpose (creation) at the same time was illogical, though, because it is. It's a LOGICAL FALLACY. When an argument has a logical fallacy in it, it becomes invalid. It violates this logical fallacy (last on the list): If everything was created by chance, then it cannot be created on purpose and vice versa. And remember something, no matter how many times I say you are wrong or disbelieve anything you say, that doesn't mean you have to agree with me or that I'm forcing you to do anything. We are just both exercising our rights to express our opinions freely and also to believe whatever we wish, too. I'm not running an oppressive tyranny over your thoughts just because I make some posts in a thread on the internet. Calm down and be more confident in your beliefs. Just because someone is arguing with your beliefs doesn't mean that that person hates you personally and all your beliefs. It means that we are trying to reason out the highest truth that we can on an issue together, even if it's really hard to find that truth. So it's kind of wrong, especially if you believe in the freedom of speech and religion as being a correct way to do things to tell others to never express their opinion. It's actually intolerant to tell others to be quiet and not express themselves if they disagree with you and don't have what you accept to be 100% proof for their argument.
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p.ix.ie
Experienced Novelist
I don't break hearts; I just dent them.
Posts: 78
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Post by p.ix.ie on Apr 30, 2009 2:45:28 GMT
If that post was aimed at me, then I really think you're missing my point. I see absolutely nothing wrong with believing a particular thing and saying what you believe. What I believe is an issue, is when others say "you're wrong" because they can't know that. I personally, don't believe that Evolution and Creation contradict each other. I know what you'll say to that, that ones says things were done on purpose and that the other says everything happened by accident, but I'm quite sure I agree with that. I just see other ways around that and no, I don't really care to explain them because there is a counter argument to everything and I don't want to get caught in a long argument about this. I only even posted on here because I felt like both sides seemed to be saying "You're wrong" and I don't think that's really an evaluation any of us have the authority to make.
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Post by damselindistress on Apr 30, 2009 6:31:45 GMT
If that post was aimed at me, then I really think you're missing my point. I see absolutely nothing wrong with believing a particular thing and saying what you believe. What I believe is an issue, is when others say "you're wrong" because they can't know that. I personally, don't believe that Evolution and Creation contradict each other. I know what you'll say to that, that ones says things were done on purpose and that the other says everything happened by accident, but I'm quite sure I agree with that. I just see other ways around that and no, I don't really care to explain them because there is a counter argument to everything and I don't want to get caught in a long argument about this. I only even posted on here because I felt like both sides seemed to be saying "You're wrong" and I don't think that's really an evaluation any of us have the authority to make. So you believe that just because I have arguments for everything you say that there is no truth? Maybe I have arguments for everything you have to say because I am right.And no one is going to agree that you are right whether you are or not unless you give them reasons to agree with you. I know it's hard to debate and a lot of times unenjoyable, but if you don't try to defend your beliefs, they are going to crumble in the sight of everyone who sees them and even a lot of times in your own eyes. Also, let me ask you something . . . Where did you get the authority to tell me I was wrong for posting the things I did in this thread? You just said to me . . . . 1. We can't know the absolute truth about anything. 2. So don't tell other people that they are wrong because you have no authority to do so. So where did you get the authority to make those claims? You just told ME I was wrong for making claims about truth when no one can make claims about the truth without 100% evidence. Where's your evidence that those statements are true? You just defeated your own argument in your own post. You obviously believe in skepticism. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SkepticismThat's the belief that you can't know anything or at least some things because you can't get 100% proof about it and you expect me to accept skepticism as fact even though you haven't tried to prove it to me as fact. I believe that you can know the truth and that there is truth and that you should fight for what you believe and show others when they are wrong about important things (like whether there is a God or not) and you can't tell me that I am wrong for believing in that or acting the way I do because there's no way for you to know I am wrong (by your logic.) I've already explained the other issue to you more than once on evolution versus creationism and now the burden of proof is on you.
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Post by Evil Inclination on May 1, 2009 6:17:12 GMT
Guys, please. The reason this thread was stopped last time was because it got out of hand. And it's getting very close to that now, because people have very strong opinions about the subject it's very easy for people to get offended even though you're both presenting good arguments. So, try to be more conscious of other people's beliefs otherwise I'll have to lock this thread, it's very close to that.
And it would be a shame because there's some really good arguments being presented here.
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